Deadly consent: Bondage death raises legal issues

[oldernewbie]

Regarding consent. Any Dom should know the law. In many US states bondages negates consent. Penetrating a bound sub can be illegal. This is no longer consensual sex (legally). Of course not everybody obeys all the speed limits but a Dom should know where the penalties will fall if something goes wrong, not necessarily in death but any injury, and act accordingly. It also was not wise for a Dom to trust a sub to that extent going straight to such dangerous activities. It appears no real relationship existed and maybe the reason the victim went from England all the way to Boston was that no Dom in London would do what he wanted. That should have clued in the Dom. This has a slight resemblance to "suicide by cop" (pulling a gun, possibly a toy gun, on a policeman and getting killed). The victim may have finally found someone dumb enough to kill him but that doesn't relieve the Dom of his responsibility.

[Kronopticon]

for the sake of safety, i already know that a single straw is not enough space to draw in enough air to breathe, nevermind the fact that it was his only method of breathing, since he couldnt breathe without a straw, thus, the dom was completely at fault, but then topping himself? im twistedly glad he felt he felt so bad after he had failed in his responsibility. i'm sick and probably wrong, but he was deserving of his fate after the series of events.

[str0be]

Since the Dom's suicide note had some degree of confession to it, that would be evidence that the family could use in their lawsuit. Also the third party could concievably testify as to what happened. Both of those things could get tossed out (the defense could claim the note was a fake, the third party guy could refuse to testify, etc.) But there is enough there to get the ball rolling on a wrongful death lawsuit.

I agree that it's not hard to make a sub think they are alone while still monitoring the situation to ensure their safety. When it comes to drugs and alcohol, it's really akin to driving drunk. You are taking a dangerous situation and making it more dangerous but dulling your senses and judgement. While I like to indulge in the ocassionaly "party favor" I rarely mix it with bondage and never sub to someone under the influence and never indulge before self-bondage. It becomes far too easy for tragic accidents to happen.

This does remind me of some arguments I had seen about Auto-Erotic Asphyxiation. Part of the appeal is the possibility of death. Some people become so desensitized to stimulation that only when they knew they are truly in mortal danger do they get that rush they crave.

[bondage1]

thw dom was at fault all the way i to like to be bound and left but my dom checks me all the time in two ways he has me on vidio all the time and also comes in and checks my body for heat and ans strese we have a comeplete trust in each other

[kotatkosperem]

I did not read the whole thread but.
It was DOMS responsibility. because all subs thrust their doms. easy as that. no matter how he liked it. DOM have to make sure everything goes right. SUBS dont think sometimes. They just want their punishment/reward DOM have to think about all details. he is the powerfull one.

It was his mistake. And he was so weak that we took his own life as well instead of dealing with the mess he caused. What a master!!

[diaperedtight]

I like to be left alone after being 'secured' but there are certain things like always using a breathable type gag, using locking straps that cannot tighten or loosened, that have to be used. Blocks of ice holding gthe restraints and keys held suspended by ice as a bckup is always good in case the Dom had an accident whislt away. Being comfortable (you learn what is good and what is not after a few years) is also important. One thing common to my last two dom partners was the fact that they were seriously turned on if they could go out shopping or whatever and return to find me still safely secured, they also knew they only had a certain amount of time to return before the ice melted and I escaped. This allowed them to return early enough and continue the 'scene', to date I have never had a problem but I am consenting to this treatment and the doms role is important in ensuring that everthing is secured right. What would happen if there was an earthquake and I die in the building because it collapsed? Is it my fault or the doms? To many unknown factors but in this case the with just a straw to breathe through, the dom should have been nearby at all times, he was not so he was responsible. The victims parent/s sueing the guy for his estate no, what harm will the dom suffer by sueing his estate....non he is already dead. This is now motivated purely by money!

DT

[Pleasure bound]

I'm amazed at how negigent this so called 'dom' was. I struggle to hold my breath for a minute so if I was in bondage that restricted my breathing I would expect my dom to not take their eye off me for longer than that.

If a sub wants to be left alone then the dom needs to make them feel they are but; THEY MUST STILL KEEP SECRETLY WATCHING to ensure the person they have the life of in their hands, is safe.

Many of us on here indulge in self bondage. This carries many risks but if you read the forums giving safety advice you will realise how you must always ensure you can breath and blood can flow to your entire body. If you put this safety issue in a dom's hands; they MUST TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

YOUR LIFE IS IN THEIR HANDS as we can clearly see. If you die; IT'S THE DOM'S FAULT.

GUILTY!

[MKu]

It was a very tragic accident and I do think that the dom was responsible for the death. This was two sad and highly unnecessary deaths that could have been easily avoided.

Accidents dont happen - they are caused!

[restricted]

I can't figure out why he went all the way to the U.S for it when there are plenty of expert dommes on the continent. Common sense obviously not around. Tubes up the nstrils and a 1 inch tube taped into the mouth would have been safer. Perhaps a helmet manufacturer could come up with these built in.

[bkkshibari]

Put this daily vanilla life samples, perspectives, examples and compare:
Teacher and student training for swimming, using a swimming technique that is rather dangerous, lots of breathe control, deep waters, cold swimming pool.

Rock climbing at Grand Canyon new location, out of bounds by parks, two team-mate secretly attempt to do it, with minimal equipment, food, torchlight batteries, phone. Backup plan was just hoping the mother will call the police if not back by 2pm.

And can bet that adrenaline rush from activities above rank similar in bdsm play, so even though it is vanilla life, it is still going to the "edge of pain and pleasure" edge of safety, breaking the limits of safety, limits of height, limits of the physical body to endure cold water, mountain, climbing, fatigue, adrenaline rush when viewing the open valley from high above etc.

Who is responsible when there is a mishap?

[bound_jenny]

Who is responsible when there is a mishap?

Whoever is in control. Whoever is responsible for the safety of the participant(s). In solo activities, it is the sole responsibility of the one engaging in said activities.

In this case, the safety of the sub was under the responsibility of the Dom (as this is not a solo activity). So in this case, it is the Dom's fault, not the sub's.

Jenny.

[selfbondage-shop]

The fact, that drugs may have been involved changes the situation dramatically IMO. If a sub is submitting to a dom deprived of rationality, it really is like hopping into a drunk driver's car and blame the driver. It should be possible to examine the bodies for such things.

Another thing is, you can say there is always a remaining risk, but putting a single vital straw in his mouth is just what you mean by risk mitigation.

It is a dramatic case we should all learn from!

[Shannon SteelSlave]

Lynn, Lynn, city of.........nevermind. LeBlanc does not define New England, just want to say that.
The former "customers" telling of abuse under his care, and the detailed suicide/confession note, seem to point out responsibility by the dom.
All blame aside, we here never want to be either of these characters, so heed this story well. Don't use drugs, keep a watchful eye, and if you can't do either /or of these things, end the session.

[Lotharjulz]

For this particular event, the Dom obviously felt responsible, guilty, and killed himself.

From my perspective (and not popular opinion here) though: The sub had total control of the situation and needs to take ultimate responsibility.

I experience this exact same scenario almost weekly and I do not hold my owner accountable. I choose whether to have a safety release that I control and have to re-convince my owner almost monthly that I am ok if the house burns down and I am chained within if _I choose_ to not have one. This obviously bothers my Dom on occasion as it will come up from time to time and have a notarized document in the safety deposit box that I hold my partner completely harmless for any accidental death especially during sexual situations. Drugs are sometimes involved and _I control_ what I put in my body and with whom I associate sexually. We usually have a backup release, but as I found out recently that can fail as well

This is an incredibly slippery slope for anyone to try and make an argument that the Dom was responsible:
- What happens if you tie someone's thigh accidentally to tight and it triggers a DVT and subsequent aneurism related death?
- Dom having heart attack in the middle of a session? (Gerald's Game)
- What about someone tripping on a hobble chain and striking a fatal blow to their head when they fall?
- Every night I am usually in unescapable restraints and if my partner dies overnight, I am dead of starvation (Romeo & Juliet ish).

Dom being negligent / ignorant in all of these too or should I the sub take the blame?? Why did this person travel to the US instead of finding professional in the UK? Likely because he tried to find it in the UK and no one would cater to his risk level. Most of our culture is based on people taking huge risks for great rewards although this seems to be changing overtime.

Bottom line: We all are going to die! I would rather die doing something I loved, than waste an opportunity and die from old age with regrets.

Don’t reach the end of your life and realize you never really lived it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ke-rPsxIuA

[Lotharjulz]

There was a plan for him to breath that wasn't successful. It was a risk for enjoyment that didn't fall his way that time.

Yeah, that's fine. If that's your thing, go for it. Where I have a problem with that story is that the person mummified this way was left alone without supervision and left to suffocate.. He could easily have still been alive had there been a good and reliable way for him to alert the person who tied him up or if that person had bothered keeping tabs on him. I don't judge the activity, I judge the apparent lack of precautions and the apparent lack of understanding just how dangerous what they were doing was until it was far far too late.

"Yeah that's fine" HOWEVER insert criteria here...

I am frequently chained in a building left alone where my partner is at times over 500 miles away (far more negligent in appearance). I could get strangled in chains, building could catch fire, tornado, etc and I am aware of the risks in fact it is the risk that makes it exciting (much like hundreds of other activities people do). How do you know the sub didnt want to be neglected? Maybe the dom being free to do something else while the sub was restrained was agreed upon before hand and unconditional for the scenario to commence?

My point was that Lisa felt guilty and decided to call it quits on self bondage, people rushed in to say never feel guilty, and this whole thread proves the contrary. I sure feel guilty as the sub in this situation for how you all will condemn and judge my Dom (for my selfish pleasure) if I make the news.