Do play safe: BDSM death in Montreal area

Post your thoughts and ideas on safety here.
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Grinser
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Post by Grinser »

bottleneck wrote:He also had a history of belittling her pain and fears. He also brought her breakfast in bed and he was totally committed to her, wanted to live with her...

So you see her conundrum?
Hmm, things like that are part of every relationship I am afraid, but indeed BDSM does not exactly help to make a relationship easier in terms of respect and making compromises.
bottleneck wrote:But that someone did not obey basic security measures in BDSM.
That on the other hand is a bad thing and I would not advise anybody to play with somebody who is known to have done that.
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bound_jenny
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Post by bound_jenny »

bottleneck wrote:But that someone did not obey basic security measures in BDSM. He also had a history of belittling her pain and fears. He also brought her breakfast in bed and he was totally committed to her, wanted to live with her...
BDSM is no place for anyone who lacks self-control or respect for the person in their charge. It has always been my belief that anyone who wishes to dominate another must first learn to dominate him/herself. And learn some measure of respect for the limits and feelings of the submissive.
bottleneck wrote:Someone so lively and so vibrant should not be dead. I can't believe what's left of her is in a mahogany urn.
That is the tragedy. She was only looking for a way to spice up her life, to break free of the limits of the conventional definition of sensuality, only to die a senseless death.

I totally agree it's difficult to reconcile seeing a box with the person's name on it, containing a few pounds of ashes and dust, with the memory of having spoken and touched that person only a few days or weeks before. All that's left is the memory. I lived through that with my mother six years ago, and my father last year. You never get used to it.

Let's hope that the truth will prevail and justice will be served, so that her death, even if it was senseless, will not be in vain.

Jenny.
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ponylady
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Post by ponylady »

bottleneck wrote:Ponylady -


Anyway, my friend and him got along famously in bed and she tried to recreate this intensity with someone who was available romantically.

But that someone did not obey basic security measures in BDSM. He also had a history of belittling her pain and fears. He also brought her breakfast in bed and he was totally committed to her, wanted to live with her...

So you see her conundrum?



Take care all and listen to the signal and cues.

i see that conundrum, and it is really very sad it turned out that way, because.....
bound_jenny wrote: BDSM is no place for anyone who lacks self-control or respect for the person in their charge. It has always been my belief that anyone who wishes to dominate another must first learn to dominate him/herself. And learn some measure of respect for the limits and feelings of the submissive.
i fully agree, jenny. i'm a switch myself. and whenever anatomically possible i try out "torture ideas" on myself before "subjecting" my slave to them.

the idea is to make this a consensual, pleasureable experince for both parts. seems this guy got carried away, and now he has to pay the price,
even though he won't ever be able to "repay" accordingly for the grief he caused.

for anyone who wants to "dabble" with the world of bdsm in can only recommend this book. it might help to avoid tragidies like this one, and is a very entertaining read:

screw the roses, send me the thorns
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Post by bottleneck »

bound_jenny wrote:That is the tragedy. She was only looking for a way to spice up her life, to break free of the limits of the conventional definition of sensuality, only to die a senseless death.
Exactly. Well said.
I totally agree it's difficult to reconcile seeing a box with the person's name on it, containing a few pounds of ashes and dust, with the memory of having spoken and touched that person only a few days or weeks before. All that's left is the memory. I lived through that with my mother six years ago, and my father last year. You never get used to it.
Wow, that's gotta be tough. I have both my parents and have only lost grand-parents so far. Close friends of mine have lost friends to suicide, overdose or illness, but I had been blessed so far.

You have all my sympathies.
Let's hope that the truth will prevail and justice will be served, so that her death, even if it was senseless, will not be in vain.
I hope so too. I look back at all our conversations and the doubts she had about her boyfriend and you know, I wish I had said something more forceful.

She had one close call before with a gag. She was livid when he untied her, they fought and she left the next morning as soon as she could without saying a word to him. She seriously thought about leaving him over this.

Now, I wish she did.


She could not tell some of her close friend what was going on while role-playing and I thought I should listen to her in all openness -- but I was worried -- although I never thought it would come to this.
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Post by bottleneck »

Grinser wrote:That on the other hand is a bad thing and I would not advise anybody to play with somebody who is known to have done that.
They had no safe word. Now, that has to be part of BDSM 101, right?
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bound_jenny
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Post by bound_jenny »

There seems to be a lesson to extract from all this.

We practice a potentially dangerous way of enhancing our pleasure, and when we have doubts or fears, it is imperative that we get a second or third or more opinions so that we can sort things out more clearly when our own judgement is clouded.

The sense of community and closeness between practitioners of BDSM must be developed more fully, so that people can talk to each other freely about their feelings, doubts, fears, and expectations, without fear of being judged or excluded.

We must learn to recognize and act on anything we may perceive as worrisome in others, even if it is only to ask a simple question, like "are you OK?". And as bottleneck wrote, to act, forcefully if necessary, to prevent the irreversible from happening.

Jenny.
Helplessness is a doorway to the innermost reaches of the soul.
If my corset isn't tight, it just isn't right!
Kink is the spice of life!
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Grinser
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Post by Grinser »

Safeword yes or no? That seems to be one of the most basic questions concerning bdsm. Of course it spoils the mood for the sub somehow, knowing that with a simple word/gesture/whatever she can end the scene. But on the other hand it can save relationships, trust and even lives.
In my opinion the necessity of a safeword depends on several circumstances, including
1) How well does the dom know the sub (An attentive dom should be able to read the body language of his sub, of course it is easier if he knows the sub well)
2) What will happen during play (handcuffs and some humiliation for example probably won`t need a safeword, strict bondage and pain play definitely need one)
3) How well experienced is the sub (a beginner is much more likely to panic of course)
4) Does the sub have any existing fears or medical conditions that will be of importance during play (even a stuffed nose can be a bad thing if you are gagged...)
5) Common sense & gut feeling (this one is ultimately the most important and overrides all of the other points)

I for my part use a safeword as soon as play leaves the "light" stage.

A safeword is a very basic part of bdsm safety and requires virtually no effort to establish, so it should definitely be discussed before playing the first time. Of course even a safeword can fail, a sub in shock or panic or suffering from, for example, a heart attack might not be able to use their safeword, meaning that a safeword does not allow a dom to lower his attention at all.
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Post by bottleneck »

Let me ask you a question, how often do doms leave a room with the sub tied down? For how long? Should there not be supervision if dangerous props are used?

Problems can arise with gags as mentioned. There was also an incident involving a Montreal professor in New York. He had a rope on his neck. He needed to stand up but his high heel broke down, so he hanged himself. The dominatrix just made it in time to save his life. This incident also made the news but the media spared the man public humiliation by not revealing his name.
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Post by Grinser »

The leaving the room thing is really bad. In some other thread I already suggested that I would rather blindfold the sub and make her believe I was gone but stay, or probably watch her over a webcam from the next room. That is why I did not include "dom is absent" into my list of situations where a safeword won`t help - I simply assumed the situation would never come up.

I have left my sub alone while bound, but only in very light bondage (positions she would use in selfbondage as well) and only for half an hour at the most.
Dangerous props need supervision I´d say. Probably depends on what prop exactly, but dangerous always implies that quick help should be available.
To defend the scene a little, I think a lot of work that is done around the bdsm scene goes into safety. Internet and literature introduce things like safewords and the SSC precept (safe, sane and consensual) and stores sell panic-release snap hooks and breathing gags, but I think the most important thing that a sub should very closely keep an eye on before actually giving up control is, if the dom cares about her. Never play with a dom who doesn`t seem to give a youknowwhat about you.

From my personal experience I can say, I have had sex with women I did not care about, and I would never have wanted to be involved in bdsm with them, because I knew I would prefer my pleasure over theirs.
With my girl it is different. I really care about her and I would rather cut off my left hand than willingly hurt her, no matter how much she annoyed me beforehand. I know I will always be attentive and wide awake when she is in my hands, but I could not have said that about the other women.

So essentially, the best way to make sure a dom takes good care of his/her sub, is to make sure he/she really cares about the sub.

edit: Thinking about it, it is really interesting, that bdsm (which is, in fact, an accumulation of unpleasant things that are done to a person) of all activities is the one where I would say I´d only do it with somebody I really care about. Sounds kind of absurd, doesn`t it?
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Post by ponylady »

bottleneck wrote:Let me ask you a question, how often do doms leave a room with the sub tied down? For how long? Should there not be supervision if dangerous props are used?
of course there should be supervision, especially with something like asphyxiation play, which you mentioned. and gags & strainfull positions
have to be watched carefully, too.
grinser wrote: edit: Thinking about it, it is really interesting, that bdsm (which is, in fact, an accumulation of unpleasant things that are done to a person) of all activities is the one where I would say I´d only do it with somebody I really care about. Sounds kind of absurd, doesn`t it?
absolutely not, that is the difference between practioneers of BDSM & sadists. there are doms/dommes who say they can't do the things they would like to do with someone they are involved with, because they would
couldn't hurt/ subject the passive partner to that "torture/humiliation".

those are the people who are borderline sadists, where it isn't about
a mutual pleasurable experience for both, but plainly for the fun of the
active part.
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Post by bound_jenny »

There is a thread/poll in http://forum.boundanna.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=935 discussing exactly these points.

Leaving a sub unattended is, as far as I am concerned, criminal negligence. There has to be some form of monitoring, even if it is unknown to the sub. Things can go irreversibly wrong very quickly, and when dangerous props are used, even more quickly. It is no different than self-bondage without backup.

As for the absurdity of BDSM being practiced with someone one cares about, quite the contrary. In fact, caring about the other is the essential ingredient that creates the bond between dominant and submissive, and makes BDSM an expression of sensuality instead of ordinary torture.

Using a more common example, having sexual intercourse with someone you care about is "making love". Doing it with someone you don't care about is, at best, just humping or, at the lowest level of bestial inconsiderateness, rape.

The only person I would allow to dominate me, or allow myself to dominate, is someone I deeply care about, who deeply cares about me, with whom I have a solid emotional and romantic bond and a rock-solid trust. A life partner, no one else. No strangers, not even friends, no matter how close. I have to know the person through and through, and vice-versa. No secrets, everything transparent. If the mutual trust runs that deep, then I can be confident.

Otherwise, no dice.

Jenny.
Helplessness is a doorway to the innermost reaches of the soul.
If my corset isn't tight, it just isn't right!
Kink is the spice of life!
Come to the Dark Side - we have cookies!
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Post by jake »

Of course, I don't know the full extent of the details, I think it's hard to pin a conviction on somebody for "consensually tying someone up in a painful situation and leaving them for a while, and coming back to find them dying". Take the story "21 days" on the main forum for instance.

Of course, it may be a more obvious case than i think, maybe there was electricity play invovled or something.

Speaking of which, there was electricity play in 21 days :shock:

But at least that was nowhere near the heart.
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Re:

Post by boundBinder »

I joined this board specifically to participate in this discussion. :wink:
bound_jenny wrote: Leaving a sub unattended is, as far as I am concerned, criminal negligence. There has to be some form of monitoring, even if it is unknown to the sub. Things can go irreversibly wrong very quickly, and when dangerous props are used, even more quickly. It is no different than self-bondage without backup.
I am right there with you on this. It is horribly dangerous, and very irresponsible of the top. If your playmate has an abandonment fantasy(like I do), then the safest thing would be to simply blindfold the bottom, and 'pretend' to leave them--say 'goodbye, walk over to the door, open it, and close it. Then, you just tiptoe to a chair, and sit silently by and watch over them. This person places their trust, their well-being, their very lives in your hands, and that level of trust deserves the most reverent respect.
bound_jenny wrote:As for the absurdity of BDSM being practiced with someone one cares about, quite the contrary. In fact, caring about the other is the essential ingredient that creates the bond between dominant and submissive, and makes BDSM an expression of sensuality instead of ordinary torture.

Using a more common example, having sexual intercourse with someone you care about is "making love". Doing it with someone you don't care about is, at best, just humping or, at the lowest level of bestial inconsiderateness, rape.
100% agreement with you, here.
bound_jenny wrote:The only person I would allow to dominate me, or allow myself to dominate, is someone I deeply care about, who deeply cares about me, with whom I have a solid emotional and romantic bond and a rock-solid trust. A life partner, no one else. No strangers, not even friends, no matter how close. I have to know the person through and through, and vice-versa. No secrets, everything transparent. If the mutual trust runs that deep, then I can be confident.

Otherwise, no dice.

Jenny.
Kind of part company with you here. I would likely play with a trusted friend, but then, I tend to care pretty deeply about my friends. :wink:

Sorry to butt in..
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Re: Do play safe: BDSM death in Montreal area

Post by onestrangeguy »

I would have to say that if you are as old as I am any form of bondage play has some risks associated with it. Of course, I am relatively healthy and all, but you never know when something unexpected is going to happen. About all you can do is try to play safe and use common sense with what you do. There are things that I enjoyed as a kid that I wouldn't think about doing now. not that i would trade places with a kid either. :)
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Update: Do play safe: BDSM death in Montreal area

Post by bound_jenny »

Finally, justice has been delivered. It's been long in coming but it's welcome.

The man responsible for a woman's death during a BDSM session five years ago (Feb. 23rd, 2008) was finally convicted. I didn't get the details (listening to the radio news at 5 am again...) but it's done. Sadly, the defense intends to appeal the ruling... :evil:

There are also more details about the circumstances - which strangely resemble another thread in here (http://forum.boundanna.net/board/viewto ... ?f=7&t=935). The victim was wearing a pretty tight collar at the time, and the Dom left her alone and unmonitored to go... to the grocery store. Lovely. Just lovely. I'm glad and relieved that the justice system did not succumb to fishy argumentation and saw the truth in this - obvious negligence.

The moral of the story is that yes, our activities have inherent risks, but acknowledgment of those risks doesn't mean ignoring them. As kinksters, we don't ignore risks, we manage them. It's our responsibility to manage and mitigate those risks as much as possible, especially when the life and health of someone else is entrusted to our hands. There is no room for error, as this case obviously shows.

Jenny.
Helplessness is a doorway to the innermost reaches of the soul.
If my corset isn't tight, it just isn't right!
Kink is the spice of life!
Come to the Dark Side - we have cookies!
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