The public, and planning your scenario - discussion

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SSS5465
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The public, and planning your scenario - discussion

Post by SSS5465 »

http://forum.boundanna.net/board/viewto ... f=6&t=5949
In the BDSM world, there is an important basic principle. What is done, is done with the consent of all involved. Often, this involves negotiated limits, there may be some things a submissive does not want to do and declares that a "hard limit" The Dominant respects that limit. Of course, in self-bondage, you are both Dominant and submissive, so you are negotiating and agreeing with yourself. But what happens when the scenario gets other people involved?

For example, you do one of the commonly discussed scenarios involving restraining yourself in a hotel room. There is an underlying risk that you may be discovered, unexpectedly, by the hotel staff - cleaning, bringing a meal etc. This represents an element of excitement. You have set the restraints and your release method, you are confident that it will work and you expect to be released well before anyone is likely to enter your room. This is "Case A".

Now, let's look at an alternative, "Case B". You set the restraints but deliberately do NOT have any release method, but have left a note at Reception asking to be woken, without fail at some time. You are relying on a staff member to come and find you helpless.

Another example. You are a male, you go to a secluded spot in a forest that you found, you choose to dress in a very "slutty" fashion and restrain yourself to a tree, with a good release method, and an emergency release. You found this spot by accident, there's no obvious path leading to it, but there is just a possibility that a walker might happen upon it, bringing that extra bit of excitement. This is "Case A"

And the alternative. As before, male, slutty dress, but you restrain yourself to some fencing beside a quiet street near a shopping mall, and you hang a sign from your chained body reading "Use and abuse me". You have a friend who will release you in a few hours. This is "Case B"

And another example. You are a cross-dresser, quite convincing but not perfect. You spend the day in the shopping mall, buying some new clothes, sitting in a cafe with a coffee, even perhaps chatting to someone. "Case A"

Or you cross-dress in a slutty way, wear a studded collar, strut around the place and make sure everyone in the mall notices you. You've guessed it, Case B.

In the above examples, with "Case A", there is a small chance a member of the public may become involved in what you do, but that isn't your intention, just a quiet scenario and a bit of excitement supplied by the small risk. In "Case B" you are deliberately trying to involve the public. "Case B" scenarios are NOT acceptable, the unfortunate public did not consent to being involved in your scenario. The consequences of "Case B" scenarios range from publicity, police involvement, and legal action through to violent or sexual assault.

So when you are contemplating your scenario, remember, the public have not given their consent.
I do not agree.
You use the substitution of definitions, then do a strange conclusion. The conclusion does not follow from these examples.
In helpless you can not force anyone to participate in your scenario. Actions of other people can be unpredictable and do not meet your scenario. Even if you need help to release, people can not take any part and just call the police.
Using this logic, a crossdresser can not go public because they do not get public consent. As it makes others see that they do not pleasant.
ItsMichael
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Re: The public, and planning your scenario - discussion

Post by ItsMichael »

The difference is whether you are doing something sexual or not, and whether you are nude or not. While it's true other people can choose to help you, or walk away, they can't choose not to see you. If you've got a gag in your mouth and you're wearing nothing but a pair of pink panties, chances are you're doing the self bondage for sexual gratification. And that makes it illegal in most states. It also involves non-consenting people in your sexual adventure. There's nothing illegal about crossdressing. But handcuffs, ropes, gags and blindfolds can be if what you're trying to accomplish is getting off. It's a form of exhibitionism. It's not as overt as flashing, but it can have consequences which are just as bad. At the very least, you should consider whether other people want to see you in bondage. We who enjoy this kink would love to run across someone in that situation. But a lot of others would not.
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bound_jenny
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Re: The public, and planning your scenario - discussion

Post by bound_jenny »

Let's not forget that different jurisdictions have widely varying public decency and other laws governing what is and is not illegal.

If the jurisdiction you're in is more liberal, don't assume that every jurisdiction is as much so as yours. That would be a giant misconception. There are few places that take a very dim view of any such antics.

Sometimes all that needs to happen is only for someone to file a complaint. Even if a complaint doesn't result in a sex-type charge, misdemeanor charges could be laid. In any case, there's trouble (and a record) in the works for the defendant.

The advice in question (and objected to by the OP) is a general guideline that aims to keep our members out of trouble - if they so wish. There is nothing that makes us prevent you from doing something poorly thought out. We just try to raise a flag to some members who (over-excitedly) plan out a scenario involving public exposure (not necessarily naked) and that might get them into trouble. If they choose to ignore the advice, it's up to them to field-test the consequences.

Why do we do it?

Because we care.

Jenny.
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Re: The public, and planning your scenario - discussion

Post by lj »

SSS5465 wrote:http://forum.boundanna.net/board/viewto ... f=6&t=5949
*****snip****
So when you are contemplating your scenario, remember, the public have not given their consent.
I do not agree.
You use the substitution of definitions, then do a strange conclusion. The conclusion does not follow from these examples.
In helpless you can not force anyone to participate in your scenario. Actions of other people can be unpredictable and do not meet your scenario. Even if you need help to release, people can not take any part and just call the police.
Using this logic, a crossdresser can not go public because they do not get public consent. As it makes others see that they do not pleasant.
Perhaps the subtlety of my argument doesn't translate well ?

My fundamental point is that it is wrong to deliberately involve the non-consenting public in your scenario.By "involve" I mean they are faced with a situation that they can't avoid seeing or being involved in, and expected by the "victim" to actively join in. The "use and abuse me" label invites action by the public. Yes, they may choose not to take any action except call the police, but they couldn't avoid seeing the person chained to the fence, wearing the label.

In theory, yes, a cross-dresser is involving the non-consenting public, but at least in the UK the cross-dresser would be at best treated like any other person, or perhaps ridiculed, and at worst attacked, but that last is very very unlikely, and only if the cross-dresser was slutty and not convincing and was in a bad part of town late at night when the drunks are around! In some countries they would be immediately arrested - as Jenny says, jurisdictions have different rules.

I'm not sure that the activity needs to be sexual in nature, to make it acceptable/unacceptable.

For example,

1 a Dominant takes their fully clothed submissive for a walk in a shopping mall- the submissive is wearing a large collar

2 a Dominant takes their fully clothed submissive for a walk in a shopping mall- the submissive is wearing a large collar, and the Dominant leads them by a chain.

3 The Dominant takes their fully clothed submissive for a walk in a shopping mall- the submissive is wearing a large collar, and the Dominant leads them by a chain, the submissive is on hands and knees.

4 The Dominant takes their scantily-clad submissive for a walk in a shopping mall- the submissive is wearing a large collar, and the Dominant leads them by a chain.

5 The Dominant takes their naked submissive for a walk in a shopping mall- the submissive is wearing a large collar, and the Dominant leads them by a chain.

6 The Dominant takes their naked submissive for a walk in a shopping mall- the submissive is wearing a large collar, and the Dominant leads them by a chain, the submissive is on hands and knees

Here there is nothing sexual, except if you take exhibitionism as inherently sexual (there are other forms of exhibitionism) and expression of a D/s relationship is also not inherently sexual. However, depending upon your country and region sensitivity to this form of behaviour, somewhere along my hypothetical spectrum, the behaviour will become unacceptable and perhaps illegal. So the Dominant should consider this before exposing both to that risk. Also, as you progress along my hypothetical spectrum, you will start to involve the public in a non-consensual way because the behaviour cannot be ignored as "just a little unconventional"

As a side-note, regarding D/s and sex. A D/s relationship need not have a sexual content - if you think it always has you have been looking at too much porn and not actually met many D/s couples. Sexual "play" may well be a part of the relationship, but the expression of dominance and submission need NOT have any sexual content.
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leopard99
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Re: The public, and planning your scenario - discussion

Post by leopard99 »

There may be some misunderstanding since English is clearly not the OP's native language. Nonetheless, LJ has explained things pretty clearly. Jenny has also discussed the differences between countries.

Bad things occasionally happen even in liberal countries like the UK. Sophie Lancaster is often cited: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ailed.html

Another relevant UK example. A man is leading his GF around by collar and chain, and is refused entry to a bus: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/7204543.stm

The activities of the victims in both these cases shouldn't cause any offence in the UK. They were certainly not doing anything even remotely illegal. In the UK if you were to go much beyond case 2 in LJ's last post there would be increasing problems. 3 or 4 might be OK. 5 or 6 definitely not.
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