E-stim punishment through PC audio jack?

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Re: E-stim punishment through PC audio jack?

Post by ruru67 »

Slave_L wrote:Keep in mind that the post here is about the PC audio jack. It has no amplification in it, and thus will not exceed 2 volts, and thus will not be felt at all.
Yep. But I wonder if you could get a useful amount of voltage by feeding the output through a 1 to 30 or so step-up transformer. It'll depend on how much output power the audio out can generate -- not enough and the audio voltage will collapse.

To get 2 mA @ 40V - typical TENS values - we need about 80mW, excluding losses. You want a transformer that is most efficient at audio frequencies.

I messed with a rig like that clocking the control lines of a serial port, but while PC serial ports have a lot more volts than audio, the power output is pathetic. I did work if I got the frequency right (for any given transformer there's a sweet spot), but not well enough to be interesting.

I've drawn up to 50 mA @ off old DEC serial ports - more than enough to drive a Model 33 Teletype with its 20mA interface with just a couple of resistors, one diode and a deranged imagination to hook it together. (A '33 is entirely electromechanical. The receive circuit is a solenoid pushing bits of metal around, so it really wants a 20mA interface to deliver that much juice.) PC serial ports are far too anaemic to pull that kind of hack, typically single low digit mA.
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Re: E-stim punishment through PC audio jack?

Post by lj »

ruru67 wrote:
I've drawn up to 50 mA @ off old DEC serial ports - more than enough to drive a Model 33 Teletype with its 20mA interface with just a couple of resistors, one diode and a deranged imagination to hook it together. (A '33 is entirely electromechanical. The receive circuit is a solenoid pushing bits of metal around, so it really wants a 20mA interface to deliver that much juice.) PC serial ports are far too anaemic to pull that kind of hack, typically single low digit mA.
the teletype machine does NOT need lots of current to make it work, the receive circuit is NOT a solenoid. The input interface is a 20mA current loop and needs DC current up to 20mA. Current loops generally have a low current , usually 4mA for the "off" (= 0) condition, and 20mA for the "on"(=1) condition, the desired code being a binary sequence. The use of a non-zero "off" current allows for proof the connection is operational and not sending a long row of "0".

Sorry, but if you don't fully understand how things work, and are happy to "hack" then please keep your suggestions off the internet, especially when "advising" people how to play with electricity. Those who have no knowledge may take your suggestions as accurate and valid. And die.

If you want to use electricity in any form of play, solo or partnered, use gear that has been properly designed for the purpose, and unless you have very considerable experience as an electronics engineer with a good knowledge of human physiology, buy the equipment from a reputable supplier. And for the record, I have used a range of electroplay equipment, all of it commercially supplied despite the fact that I have both qualifications.
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Re: E-stim punishment through PC audio jack?

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lj wrote:
ruru67 wrote:
I've drawn up to 50 mA @ off old DEC serial ports - more than enough to drive a Model 33 Teletype with its 20mA interface with just a couple of resistors, one diode and a deranged imagination to hook it together. (A '33 is entirely electromechanical. The receive circuit is a solenoid pushing bits of metal around, so it really wants a 20mA interface to deliver that much juice.) PC serial ports are far too anaemic to pull that kind of hack, typically single low digit mA.
the teletype machine does NOT need lots of current to make it work, the receive circuit is NOT a solenoid. The input interface is a 20mA current loop and needs DC current up to 20mA. Current loops generally have a low current , usually 4mA for the "off" (= 0) condition, and 20mA for the "on"(=1) condition, the desired code being a binary sequence. The use of a non-zero "off" current allows for proof the connection is operational and not sending a long row of "0".

Sorry, but if you don't fully understand how things work, and are happy to "hack" then please keep your suggestions off the internet, especially when "advising" people how to play with electricity. Those who have no knowledge may take your suggestions as accurate and valid. And die.

If you want to use electricity in any form of play, solo or partnered, use gear that has been properly designed for the purpose, and unless you have very considerable experience as an electronics engineer with a good knowledge of human physiology, buy the equipment from a reputable supplier. And for the record, I have used a range of electroplay equipment, all of it commercially supplied despite the fact that I have both qualifications.
I've briefly joined one of the e-stim forums out there, visited once or twice and never went back. Lots of people were experimenting with audio amplified circuits for stimming. It sort of works, but there are lots and lots of messages of people reporting "after effects" and dullness afterwards, which could be an indicator of nerve damage. But what struck me most if you look around on the internet is that the people experimenting with cheap and DIY stuff are NEVER the electrical engineers. They are nearly always the ones saying: "Nope, won't mess with that stuff. I know more than enough to know I should NOT be messing with electricity and the human body". The pro's that DO mess with this stuff actually have the required qualifications to design medical TENS equipment.
So if the people who have spend years working on electronics design decide they don't know enough about it, I'd say it'd be rather arrogant for me to think I could do it myself.
Thus, I'm hoping to save enough to at some point buy some proper equipment.
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Re: E-stim punishment through PC audio jack?

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ruru67 wrote:
Slave_L wrote:Keep in mind that the post here is about the PC audio jack. It has no amplification in it, and thus will not exceed 2 volts, and thus will not be felt at all.
Yep. But I wonder if you could get a useful amount of voltage by feeding the output through a 1 to 30 or so step-up transformer. It'll depend on how much output power the audio out can generate -- not enough and the audio voltage will collapse.

To get 2 mA @ 40V - typical TENS values - we need about 80mW, excluding losses. You want a transformer that is most efficient at audio frequencies.

I've drawn up to 50 mA @ off old DEC serial ports...
The audio transformer sounds like a good idea at first glance. PC audio jacks do have an a small amplifier circuit designed for driving approximately a 32 ohm load. Assuming you can get a transformer that won't short the PC output (a dangerous assumption), there is possibly up to 100mW of power available if the impedance matches well with the transformer (another big maybe). If all of this works out, we could get a voltage sensation out of the PC. The question then becomes how much power will come out of the computer? Did they spec the output at line level, headphone level, or speaker level? Will it drive 8 ohm speakers at 500 mW? If so, we just went over our power requirements and risk burning tissue, nerve damage, and other "after effects".

To do this safely, we need our own amplifier circuit. The output must be actively regulated down to TENS power levels. We also want a specific feel to the output. Otherwise, we just get some random shocky feeling. To do this, we need to shape the waveform output, eliminate unwanted frequencies, and pulse the output correctly. I know just the part to do all of this safely: http://store.e-stim.co.uk/index.php?mai ... ducts_id=2
Buy the professionally designed gear in the first place.
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Re: E-stim punishment through PC audio jack?

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lj wrote: the teletype machine does NOT need lots of current to make it work, the receive circuit is NOT a solenoid. The input interface is a 20mA current loop and needs DC current up to 20mA. Current loops generally have a low current , usually 4mA for the "off" (= 0) condition, and 20mA for the "on"(=1) condition, the desired code being a binary sequence. The use of a non-zero "off" current allows for proof the connection is operational and not sending a long row of "0".
Oh, please. I restored the thing, I know how it works. The receive circuit is a solenoid; the main power, and all the timing comes from a constantly running shaft powered by an electric motor, while the solenoid initiates the receive cycle when a start bit is received and positions things according to the incoming data bits, so the print drum will be in the right place when the hammer whacks it into the ribbon and paper.

The transmitter is a commutator attached to the printer / tape reader to switch the line off one bit at a time.

It's kinda fun to work on something where the process of turning bits on a wire into mechanical action is so visible.
Sorry, but if you don't fully understand how things work, and are happy to "hack" then please keep your suggestions off the internet, especially when "advising" people how to play with electricity. Those who have no knowledge may take your suggestions as accurate and valid. And die.
Seriously, if anyone treated an idea framed as "I wonder if ..." as an instruction manual, frankly the world is better off without them in the gene pool. Hell's teeth, give people a little credit for intelligence. Every time electro comes up here you run around waving your hands in the air screaming "people will die!" If we have a decent conversation we might learn something. Other stuff we talk about here is every bit as dangerous and no-one's being quite as rude about it as you are on this topic.

Riddle's response is the sort of thing I was looking for. I'm inclined to agree; I'd want a top end on the voltage.
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Re: E-stim punishment through PC audio jack?

Post by lj »

ruru67 wrote:
lj wrote: the teletype machine does NOT need lots of current to make it work, the receive circuit is NOT a solenoid. The input interface is a 20mA current loop and needs DC current up to 20mA. Current loops generally have a low current , usually 4mA for the "off" (= 0) condition, and 20mA for the "on"(=1) condition, the desired code being a binary sequence. The use of a non-zero "off" current allows for proof the connection is operational and not sending a long row of "0".
Oh, please. I restored the thing, I know how it works. The receive circuit is a solenoid; the main power, and all the timing comes from a constantly running shaft powered by an electric motor, while the solenoid initiates the receive cycle when a start bit is received and positions things according to the incoming data bits, so the print drum will be in the right place when the hammer whacks it into the ribbon and paper.
according to a document labelled 6354WD, (link http://www.virhistory.com/navy/tty/tty-wd-list.htm ) the input circuit for a Type 33 Teletype comprises a load resistor for the current loop, which can either be 8mA=1 or 20mA=1, zero current being the 0 (unusual but never mind) feeding into a pair of transistors Q1 and Q2 switching a regulated 500mA supply to the solenoid.

I am very happy to discuss electronic/electrical matters. Was I rude ? perhaps ? but we see so many posts from people lacking in a clear understanding of what they are doing, and part of our job as Moderators or Members, is to point out risks. Unfortunately you have shown that you don't fully understand your restored Teletype, and perhaps that may carry over into other areas of your electrical expertise ?

As to the original subject, if you are willing to take risks with DIY electro-play, you need to do a number of things to improve safety.

Surface contact is generally high resistance, >1000R, often >50KR, TENS use conductive rubber pads, and the supply is itself high impedance, so you can't exceed a safe current.

Internal body contact (mouth, penis and anal) contacts are potentially very low resistance, well under 1000R, as are sub-epidermal contacts with needles or other puncture methods. It is essential that series resistors are used, calculated to limit the possible current to less than 20mA even if short-circuited.

Any contacts should not be placed such that the direct path between them crosses the heart (central and a lot higher up the chest than most people think) - that's where you apply defibrillator pads with the obvious reason - to disrupt the heart rhythm.

Any electrical shock may cause spasm, which could throw the victim into a dangerous situation.

There are various components (zener diodes, Transient Voltage Suppressors for example) which can be used to limit the maximum voltage that can be applied, caused typically by a random waveform such as audio through an inductive circuit. Coupled with a suitable series limiting resistor this would make the equipment relatively safe, but you would need an oscilloscope to determine the actual voltage swing across the likely load to get the values right.

It is generally accepted that any electrical equipment used in SB etc should be powered from an intrinsically safe supply - batteries rather than mains, isolation transformers, mains-failure to safe conditions, residual current breakers to prevent mains/earth faults.

But I repeat, don't mess with electricity unless you know what you are doing. Just the same as not messing with rope/chains/hoods/gags unless you are very careful. Life has risks, 100% sure to end in death, we just try to avoid it happening by ignorance, carelessness or unnecessary risk taking.
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Re: E-stim punishment through PC audio jack?

Post by Gregovic »

ruru67 wrote:Seriously, if anyone treated an idea framed as "I wonder if ..." as an instruction manual, frankly the world is better off without them in the gene pool. Hell's teeth, give people a little credit for intelligence.
In my professional opinion as an engineer, everyone and anyone is an idiot. It just depends on the subject matter how much of one. Some people are idiots all the time (seriously, mindbogglingly stupid. So stupid it hurts to even try to communicate with them), some are only idiots some of the time. We've all thought: "well that was F-ing stupid of me" at some point. Potentially while recovering from the adrenaline overload flooding through the body after a near miss or a high fall. That was you/me being an idiot. DIY TENS/EMS/E-stim equipment has SO much potential for "gee, that was stupid of me" moments to happen that can result in nerve damage, health problems or death it is generally much better/safer to just say "NO, DON'T!". Especially as the moderator/admin of a self-bondage centred website with all the legal stickyness that can bring in case of a death by DIY E-stim box built from/with instructions from this forum. There are forums out there specifically discussing E-stim devices and DIY stuff, which might be a better place for this sort of thing. Not that hard to find. But also see my previous post about how it seems all professional electrical engineers say: "Nope, I ain't touching that"

What are you actually expecting here? To come to a safe useable design for a DIY E-stim device running from the audio jack of a PC? There are some designs based on wire wound audio transformers out there. Again, not that hard to find with a bit of google/bing/searching. They are however imho neither safe nor effective. By the time you get to a good design with all the safeguards needed, good power isolation, buy all components, get a proper PCB fabbed and everything soldered up and ready to go you'll find it's probably just as expensive to buy a ready made unit.

Probably the only way you and lj are going to have any sort of fruitful discussion in this field is if you can PM him a completely laid out schematic, BOM and board design for a device and asking him if he sees any stupid mistakes. And even then he's more than likely to politely decline because of liability reasons. Anything below that level being posted on this forum runs a high risk of someone less skilled in the art to think "ohh, that missing bit's easy, I can do that myself no problem" and doing themselves harm. Because so much of this SEEMS easy, but really isn't until you understand things like variable load impedance, muscle responses to both current and voltage, frequency resonances, etc, etc. Most of which I certainly don't understand.
I'm sorry but although he puts it a bit more bluntly/rude than I would I agree with lj here.
Last edited by Gregovic on 26 Jun 2017, 21:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: E-stim punishment through PC audio jack?

Post by Gregovic »

jack_sub wrote:Hello there, I have been a member for quite a while and this is my first post (like many others :P)

I was checking out the latest bondara sale and noticed there was an e-stim device on sale (link below). It has an audio jack that connects the butt plug to the control/power box.

Link: http://www.bondara.co.uk/fetish-fantasy ... sure-probe

I was wondering if you could possibly connect the butt plug into a PC audio jack and use it for punishments in the various BJ trainer programs? (using separate audio devices to the ones used for the sound)

I am skeptical myself as I have no idea if any actual power is sent down an audio jack, and if there was if it could power such a device.

Any knowledgeable answers would be great, I was thinking it would be fun to try if it was/could be this cheap and simple to set up :)
Re-reading the original post I think we got slightly off track so let me answer the question. No, plugging the butt plug from that set into an audio port is not going to provide any sort of stimulation. If it's a well designed port also intended to handle low impedance/resistance loads like headphones it won't provide anything near enough power. If it's not well designed it could potentially be damaging to the soft body tissue. It certainly won't provide a pleasurable experience in any case.
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Re: E-stim punishment through PC audio jack?

Post by KinkInSpace »

One last comment from me on this topic....

As audio engineer myself, I own a TENS unit that can take an audio signal and convert it into TENS. I wanted one primarily so I could make my own tens program.

When I first got the tens unit, obviously the first thing I did was play a game, hook up its audio and connected the leads to my penis. I played a racegame which creates continuous audio. I expected the game to be a torment because the continuous flow of electricity going into my penis. Boy was I wrong. The first few seconds the audio started I felt something and although during the entire race I did feel something, even on the highest setting of the powerbox, I didn't feel much at all. But when I hit pause and the audio stopped and I then continued, wow, that was different. There was this brief moment of actual adrenaline when the massive power hit my penis. But it soon subsided and went back to a nearly faint feeling.

My body simply adjusts too quickly to the feeling.

Okay, so using game audio as torture is not gonna work. How about music then? I fired up my audio player, and expected some better results, but the result was exactly the same as in the game. Because its a continuous flow of electricity, the body gets used to it very quickly very fast and then the sensation/pleasure is gone.

As audio engineer I am capable of creating something that really works, but I can tell you, it took me over 4 hours to get to a point where the audio did what I wanted to do, and I had a working TENS unit designed to do this.

If I hadn't had a working TENS unit, I'm pretty sure I either didn't be able to get any result that is satisfying or I would most likely have crossed safe thresholds causing major injury.

And yes, I have played with TENS units to see what the limits are and I have been able to go past the limit normally allowed by the TENS units. The result was shocking. Blood came dripping out of my penis, and it didn't even hurt.
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