DIY EStim device

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KinkInSpace
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DIY EStim device

Post by KinkInSpace »

I always thought I understood how electricity works. I know the terminology and played enough with electricity and Estim to figure things out.

Or so I thought. Recently, doing some more investigation into electricity and electronic mechanics made me realize a few things.

Before I start, I will once again tell the following: DIY Estim is a big no! Don't do it. I made this topic not to show you how, but to explain why you really should not.

Unlike saying: you simply shouldn't, I'm going more in depth as I understand how it all works now.

What is electricity?
The biggest question is of course, what is electricity?

Electricity is the movement of electrons from one place to another. Electrons are atoms, and they tend to move to a place where fewer electrons are in order to balance things out. It is more refined than this, but for this post, you do not need to know more, or research it if you want to know more. Some materials do not allow electrons to move through. These are called insulators.

This basically means, anything that conducts electricity will allow electrons to move through. Some materials allow better conductivity than others, and electrons want to move to a place where the resistance to move there is the least, similar as to how water will naturally tend to flow towards one direction rather than to spread all over the place. Electricity will leak into other directions too, but the majority will go into the path of the least resistance.

Electricity is expressed as Watts. When a device requires any electricity it basically requires x amounts of watts to function properly.

There is a foruma to calculate watts: Watts = current * voltage

Why is this important? Because this explains why DIY EStim devices is a really bad idea.

You can get the voltage easily. You have a power source that is rated by its voltage. For example a typical battery is 1.5 volts, a 9v battery is 9 volts, and a wall socket is ~110 volts in the USA, and 220 volts in europe and Asia.

Contrary to what people believe, voltage is not what kills you, its the current. Voltage tells us how fast electricity is flowing and current is the amount of electricity that flows at a particular place.

For example, if you have a thin wire, that wire supports a certain maximum current (little). You can put as much voltage through it as you want, but it is not going to produce a lethal shock.

Current can be seen as having a large pipe. At a place where current is limited to a small number, the pipe is narrowed. Put a lot of watts of electricity at one end, at the other, only a few watts of electricity remains. Of course, with so much voltage being bombarded at that narrow place, that section will obviously have excessive electricity that needs to be released somehow. This is dissipated through heat. That small section basically gets very hot.

This tells us that you can't actually put as much voltage through as you want, because that will cause the wire to become hot until at some point the wire breaks.

There are different materials though, and some are more heat resistant. So if the cabling can take the lower current with high voltage, then that means the high voltage will get stuck somewhere else, which can mean that the internal circuitry breaks, or if there simply is not such, the wiring still becomes hot, upto the point where its insulator (usually plastic) starts to melt.

In order to combat this, there are resistors that basically alter the flow of electricity (voltage and current) so that a safe amount can travel through a wire.

You can obviously understand that when you get to this point, you have to do a lot of experimentation in what kind of resistor you need to provide stimulating electricity for your body, but not so much that you damage your body. This is so much trial and error with so much danger, that not only do you spend a lot of money to get it right, you also risk internal injury that is most likely going to be permanent.

So to be on the safe side, you will start with building a device that only goes to a very low setting. You feel it a bit, but not much. Then you can change your device to go higher and you slowly ramp it up. When you get to a level that is definitely being felt, yet still being very much on the safe side, at this point you are about a year and probably 500$ of material further. Of course you do need an actual EStim unit to find out what the safe levels are, and your goal here is to not have to buy an EStim unit in the first place.

But lets assume you actually have a spend those 2000$ on getting the device perfect, and you now have a continuous flow of electricity that stimulates your nerves properly and safely enough, now you need to develop the more interesting part, make patterns and program interesting patterns in it.

This requires that you actually start to shape the electricity rather than control when you feel it and when you aren't. A simple Arduino won't do that. So you need another 4000$ to research that, let alone another few years of time.

And guess what, it is so much cheaper to buy a proper EStim device where all the research have been done before.

True, once you finally know how it works, and what works, it is cheap to make that EStim device. But you're not there. Not by a long shot.
Formally known as Slave_L.
I'm not yet very comfortable expressing my love for kink from my private life. I will therefor hide behind my username KinkInSpace and not allow any connections to who I really am. I'm sure you'll understand.
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Re: DIY EStim device

Post by Blacky »

First things first:

I totally agree with Slave_L that DIY-estim is not an option! It is simply too dangerous, as there are a lot of aspects on both the technical and the medical (biochemical, biophysical) side(s) that we common people just don't know enough about!

Please don't even try, stay safe!


However, there are a couple of fundamental mistakes and misunderstandings in the original post.
I'll try to correct some of the, clarify others. By no means does that mean that I disrespect you or your intent here, Slave_L. I hope you don't get this wrong!

Electricity is the movement of electrons from one place to another.
As long as you don't move into electrostatics, that is.
Electrons are atoms...
This is simply wrong. They are elementary particles (Fermions in this case). They are one of the parts that form atoms (along with protons and neutrons which are themselves formed by quarks...).
Thus atoms contain electrons. However, electrons can leave atoms (basically comparable to humans can leave a house). These "free electrons" can then move along electric conductors (wires...).

There is a lot more to this. Describing this in detail leads us into both Einstein's works and into Quantum mechanics (Planck, Schroedinger, Heisenberg).
If there is real interest => pm.

The important fact here is, that free electrons moving along a wire will collide with the atoms that form the wire. We'll soon see why this is important.

... electrons want to move to a place where the resistance to move there is the least
Not quite. Electrons can be described as charged particles. They each have a single negative charge. They will thus try to get to places where they'll find positive charges. These occur, when electrons leave their atoms.
The atom as a whole is electrically neutral. If an electron leaves its atom it takes a single negative charge with it. The remainder of the atom needs to have a single positive charge then, basically because
0 - (-1) = 1.
The difference between the charges of areas with more positive charges and the electron's single negative charge is what makes them travel.
The resistance it faces along it's way is what makes it choose a specific route.
Compare it to this:
If you have a choice you'll make use of routes, where the traffic runs freely. This equals low resistance. You wouldn't willingly choose a route where you know there'll be a traffic jam. But you will choose that route if you absolutely have to go to a specific place, and that route is the only one available!

Electricity is expressed as Watts.
Your sentence kind of equals "Traffic is horsepower."
Both Watt and hp are units of power. Power is energy divided by time.

Voltage tells us how fast electricity is flowing...
This is not true. Voltage tells us, how much energy a single electron carries with it! There is no information about how fast a single electron is in this unit!
That actually wouldn't even matter. The important fact is not whether and when a single electron makes it through the wire.
What is important is that the pulse makes it through.
You can easily compare it to Newton's cradle. The ball you actually pull to the side never makes it to the other side of the cradle. It's pulse is what passes through the system.
However, the speed of the pulse passing the wire is constant (and equal to the speed of light in vacuum, IIRC)!

To sum up the units so far:

- Power given in Watt: Tells us how much energy per time can be drawn from a system.
- Voltage given in Volt: Tells us how much energy each electron in the system carries.
- Current given in Ampère: Tells us how many electrons pass a conductor's diameter in a given time.


"This tells us that you can't actually put as much voltage through as you want, because that will cause the wire to become hot until at some point the wire breaks."
The wire itself is a resistor. The value of such a resistor basically tells us how much current (how many electrons per second) pass the conductor when a certain voltage is applied to its ends.
The relevant formula is Ohm's law:

U = R * I => R = U/I

If you apply a voltage to a specific wire a current will flow through it.
Double the voltage on the same wire will cause twice the current and so on.

You might remember that telectrons moving through a wire will bump into the atoms the wire is made of. Each of these bumps can be considered as friction. As we probably all know friction causes heat.
Simplified very drastically that means: Twice the Voltage => twice the current => twice the friction (actually even more!) => twice the heat resulting.

Thus it's not the voltage that fries the wire, it's the resulting current.
If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. (W. Blake)
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Re: DIY EStim device

Post by Keyless »

Slave_L wrote:
Before I start, I will once again tell the following: DIY Estim is a big no! Don't do it. I made this topic not to show you how, but to explain why you really should not.

Unlike saying: you simply shouldn't, I'm going more in depth as I understand how it all works now.
I am sure Slave_L was trying to emphasize the "Do NOT try to build an e-stim" message. Even so, the latter part of the post sort of suggests a procedure. I have to say that, if that procedure were to work, it could be VERY dangerous.
Blacky wrote:First things first:
You might remember that telectrons moving through a wire will bump into the atoms the wire is made of. Each of these bumps can be considered as friction. As we probably all know friction causes heat.
Simplified very drastically that means: Twice the Voltage => twice the current => twice the friction (actually even more!) => twice the heat resulting.
Remember that watts=volts*amps so, if doubling the voltage also doubles the current, you get four times the watts.
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Re: DIY EStim device

Post by Blacky »

Keyless wrote:...
Blacky wrote:...
Simplified very drastically that means: Twice the Voltage => twice the current => twice the friction (actually even more!) => twice the heat resulting.
Remember that watts=volts*amps so, if doubling the voltage also doubles the current, you get four times the watts.
You are absolutely right. It's four times the power, as P = UI = RI^2.
Don't know how I managed to make that mistake? :oops:
Totally my bad.
Thanks for pointing it out!
If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. (W. Blake)
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Re: DIY EStim device

Post by Stretched out »

For the same power, doubling voltage HALVES the current.

Hence electric motors often overheat if run under voltage, because the wiring is sized to support a maximum current flow. So running European 240V devices on US 120V isn't a good idea unless they have been designed as dual voltage.

With the price of estim, TENS and EMS machines, its probably silly to try building one only to find you've now got a Taser :facepalm:
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Re: DIY EStim device

Post by Gregovic »

The biggest problem with trans-cutaneous power flow is that the human body is not even close to being an ideal resistance. The resistance of the skin and underlying tissue depends very much on a LOT of different conditions. It is both voltage, current AND frequency dependant for starters. Even what you had for breakfast (electrolyte balance) can have an influence.The way human tissue reacts to an electrical current also has to do with all those variables again. A straight DC device just delivering a low amperage is a BAD, BAD, BAD idea for instance. Our body doesn't like DC. It depletes the nerves and muscles of important minerals and can do a lot of permanent damage even at amperages normally considered non-lethal. They won't be lethal in the short term indeed! But that just goes for stopping the heart or causing life threatening injury. Losing all motor function in one arm isn't life threatening.

Electricity and self bondage are a dangerous combo. And if you think you know what you are doing, consider my sig a bit and think again... Do I really understand what's going on?

PS: Personally I think it would be best if this thread were locked at the least. Possibly just removed. Lest the title give someone incentive to start looking elsewhere for actual "plans".
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Re: DIY EStim device

Post by lj »

Gregovic wrote: PS: Personally I think it would be best if this thread were locked at the least. Possibly just removed. Lest the title give someone incentive to start looking elsewhere for actual "plans".
I fear Pandora has opened the box on that, plans exist, just search on the internet !

I think this thread is actually helpful, because it highlights the fact that very few people have a real understanding of electricity, although they think they know more than they actually do.

I've spent 40 years as a professional Electronics Engineer, and about 15 years before that playing around with electrical experimentation, my father being an Electrical Engineer. And I have a degree in Biological Science. So, yes, I can easily design an EStim, and get it right, to work safely and efficiently.

But I won't bother. If I wanted one I would go a buy one, much cheaper than spending my spare time designing circuits, building them, programming the microprocessor, developing the high-level code for the pretty laptop interface.

We always come back to the same point. Unless you are an experienced professional Engineer, preferably with a good knowledge of human physiology, don't even think of trying to do DIY Estim. Buy one !
be a switch, double the fun :-)
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Re: DIY EStim device

Post by MKu »

Blacky wrote:
Slave_L wrote:Voltage tells us how fast electricity is flowing...
This is not true. Voltage tells us, how much energy a single electron carries with it!
Here you're wrong too. Since Voltage can be applied to both sources and consumers of energy, the only valid definition of Voltage is:
Voltage tells us the electric potential difference between two points.
(The energy of an electron is measured in electron-volt or joules.)

1Volt is defined (based on SI Base Units):
Image

btw.: Until 1990 voltmeters were calibrated by using a weston cell which generates an electric potential difference of 1.01865V at 20°C
Indeed over time people got knowledge but no wisdom.

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Re: DIY EStim device

Post by leopard99 »

Don't forget the distinction between EMF (elecrtromotive force) and PD (potential difference). Both are measured in volts so it's easy to get confused. Like LJ I'm a professional electronics engineer and we just use them correctly without having to think too hard.

EMF means that something is generating a voltage. Such a battery or dynamo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromo ... difference

Potential difference is simply the voltage difference between 2 points in a circuit.

I'm not entirely sure about the Weston cell being the primary voltage standard until 1990. The Josephson junction became the primary standard in 1989/1990. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephson ... _standards Before then I think the Weston Cell was a convenient lab standard. I think the primary standards were current and resitance, with voltage as a derived standard.

The main point of all this is: Don't muck about with electricity and the human body unless you actually know what you're doing.
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Re: DIY EStim device

Post by KinkInSpace »

Before explaining my post further, I'd like to point out, that the topic itself is going exactly into the direction I wanted it to go, and seeing lj's post is like a thank you. :)

I posted this based after watching a few youtube videos that explained it very well. The problem here is merely the fact that it has been a while since I saw that video so I was writing it to what I think was said, and also trying to simplify the post. Though the replies given do reflect what I saw in the video, so I know that my knowledge is good enough to know that it is by far out of my league to make an EStim device, and also to conclude that if I were to make one, it would cost me too much money, especially compared to a very high-end and expensive Estim device that you can buy.

In other words, getting one of those 500$ EStim devices, is still cheaper than making one myself, and that in the end is the goal here.

As for the misleading title, this is on purpose. My goal is to lure people to this topic who are actually looking to make one, only to make them question their initial decision, and think twice... no three times, before attempting to make an EStim device.

One of the biggest caveats I can think of, is that people decide: well, you can make an estim device as cheap as you want, so mine won't cost 500$. But the problem is not so much in the costs for the end result, but rather the costs required for all the research. The first estim device a novice would make is not the only device they will make. It will either not work, be too weak, or likely kill them. Definitely not will it be done right the first time.

Now that this is out of my system, please continue the discussion. :) Share your knowledge and emphasize why DIY estim is bad!

Oh, and a small sidenote: if you want to do build EStim because it is too expensive, go look on aliexpress. There are some cheap units out there that are great to try out estim yourself. They are not as powerful as the professional devices, but it will definitely be a product you can afford and so much safer than DIY Estim. In fact, even if you are the best electrician, I doubt you can build an EStim device for the price of these units anyway.
Formally known as Slave_L.
I'm not yet very comfortable expressing my love for kink from my private life. I will therefor hide behind my username KinkInSpace and not allow any connections to who I really am. I'm sure you'll understand.
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Re: DIY EStim device

Post by lj »

Whilst they lack the versatility and power of the top-end Estim devices, a TENS unit is a good and safe way to experiment with electro-play. These are sold for use by people who have no idea about electrical safety, the thinking has already been done by the manufacturer, designing them to be completely safe if used as described in the simple instructions. They come with a variety of means to connect to the body, even including insertables, so you can apply some stimulation to almost any part of the body.

With great difficulty and considerable stupidity you could possibly cause some damage to delicate parts of the body but you aren't going to kill yourself. In the UK you can get a TENS for £20.

Mind you, you won't get the mind-blowing experience you can get from a top-end EStim like the Erostek products (yes, I have personal experience !).

Slave_l makes a good point about thinking you can do a job more cheaply than the professionals. Unless you can reverse engineer the design and hack the firmware/software, it will always cost you more than the commercial price, unless you have free, unlimited time to go through the design process from the start to finish, and of course the technical knowledge to do so.
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Re: DIY EStim device

Post by Zaphod »

I do not want to lead anyone to build E-hym. But I have to admit honestly that I thought about his construction a long time ago. But only theoretically. I have the expertise of electronics and so I know that electricity is not safe entertainment. That is why I was looking for information about professional devices. I managed to get reverse engineering plans and hack software Erostek ET-312 equipment, it can be considered the most legendary e-stim device. Originally I thought I'd copy the ET-312 output section and use my own control. When I saw the drawing drawings of the output part, I was shocked by how primitive the output circuit and the whole device are being solved. This has completely discouraged me from thinking about my own construction and even from using professional e-tech in the future.
Later I was curious to buy the aliexpres e-stim device and made my own reverse engineering. I was shocked even more. I do not know who could think of such a device and approve it for sale to customers.
In the end, I decided not to build anything and e-stim at all.
I will not publish reverse engineering schemes here or more to describe professional devices.
I do not want to encourage anyone to go the same way and try to build E-stim at home.
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Re: DIY EStim device

Post by occorics »

Zaphod wrote:I do not want to lead anyone to build E-hym. But I have to admit honestly that I thought about his construction a long time ago. But only theoretically. I have the expertise of electronics and so I know that electricity is not safe entertainment. That is why I was looking for information about professional devices. I managed to get reverse engineering plans and hack software Erostek ET-312 equipment, it can be considered the most legendary e-stim device. Originally I thought I'd copy the ET-312 output section and use my own control. When I saw the drawing drawings of the output part, I was shocked by how primitive the output circuit and the whole device are being solved. This has completely discouraged me from thinking about my own construction and even from using professional e-tech in the future.
Later I was curious to buy the aliexpres e-stim device and made my own reverse engineering. I was shocked even more. I do not know who could think of such a device and approve it for sale to customers.
In the end, I decided not to build anything and e-stim at all.
I will not publish reverse engineering schemes here or more to describe professional devices.
I do not want to encourage anyone to go the same way and try to build E-stim at home.
my E-Box 2B is basically also only a PIC processor with some output transformers. It's the internal signal-processing that makes the difference.
I built a stereo-stim device many years ago and used it with the smartstim software. I'm experienced with electronics, but electricity can behave strangely when high frequencies are involved and the shielding isn't perfect.
It worked, but it always felt harsh and i never managed to have an HFO. Investing in the 2B opened a whole new world...
Considering the time and money i spent in experiments and cheap devices, i could easily have bought an ET-312... additional to my 2B...

btw... for anyone who owns a device with stereo-input, try this web-tease: https://milovana.com/webteases/showflash.php?id=35174
it includes the best stim-signals i ever experienced!
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