MODERATOR WARNING: ELECTROSTIMULATION DEVICES

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cooper1337
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Re: MODERATOR WARNING: ELECTROSTIMULATION DEVICES

Post by cooper1337 »

About the Ohmmeter-thing: DC does not really influence the nerves, which would be necessary to create arrythmic heart behaviour. The biggest problem with DC applied directly to blood is the electrolysis of the blood which creates loads of toxic substances and can kill you hours or even days after you applied the current.
Blood is a quite good conductor, even with an 1.5V cell you should be able to get some mA, which is a lot concerning electrolysis in a living body.
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Riddle
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Re: MODERATOR WARNING: ELECTROSTIMULATION DEVICES

Post by Riddle »

lj wrote:
Riddle wrote: Do you happen to know what size cell the ohmmeter used? A half century ago, cells better than D cells existed and ohmmeters were analog which apply greater current levels than modern Digital Multi-meters (DMM's).
just to clarify something

the size of cell, or more strictly its capacity, is irrelevant to how much current it can supply into a given resistance...

True up until the given resistance begins to approach the cell resistance; 9 volt batteries such as used in modern DMM's have 1 to 2 Ω of resistance and will not put 9V onto a 2Ω load because the battery resistance is a significant portion of the total circuit resistance. The example of replacing 10 button cells (~5Ω each) with 8 AA batteries (~0.15Ω each) illustrated this principle. The point of asking about the ohm meter and its "1.5V flashlight cell" was to try to figure out how someone could be electrocuted by a 1.5V cell. Cheap analog meters currently available use 1 AA battery for the Ohm readings and are much safer compared to meters 50 years ago which used larger batteries.
lj wrote:It happens that high capacity cells often have a very low internal resistance so they are capable of supplying very large currents, but unless the total circuit resistance is low the current will also be low.
What is the internal resistance of a human body when the skin is punchered? Could the resistance enter the realm of where your "unless" statement is true and the cell internal resistance begins to matter?
lj wrote:...This meant that a significant current had to flow to get the needle to move. I recall the "AVO" meter also had a 22volt (?) battery to measure resistance in the MOhm (meg-ohm = million ohms) range as the main 1.5v cell simply couldn't supply enough current to make the needle move over a few thousand ohms resistance...
Now this meter you mention is much more likely to cause death than one using a "1.5V flashlight cell". The analog meter mentioned in my previous post was designed to contain 8 D batteries in series (12V) and is no longer considered safe.
lj wrote:The unfortunate death commented upon, where a student received a fatal shock via a cut-to-cut connection with an old-style meter, could not happen with modern meters, as the internal resistance is measured in MOhms so the current would be sub-microamps whatever the external circuit resistance was.
Nice paraphrase of my quote you used. Now, how is this relevant to electro-stimulation safety? Modern home TENS units use 9V batteries for the supply voltage (low maximum current into even a short), use very low current circuits, and include safeguards to prevent high current pulses from reaching the body. Just the same as modern Digital Multi-Meters. Surface mount resistors die just the same as a person when subjected to too much power (volts times amps). Either way, play safe!
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lj
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Re: MODERATOR WARNING: ELECTROSTIMULATION DEVICES

Post by lj »

I think we may be getting into a techie discussion that will bore everyone rigid.

There is a simple rule in designing things. "You can design for idiots, but you can't design for bloody idiots."

In exactly the right circumstances, you can undoubtedly kill yourself with a 1.5v AAA cell (swallowing it may well work !) but for all reasonable circumstances a TENS unit is safe. A DC supply may well cause electrolyte chemistry to generate toxic products (I have no idea if it does) but how long is anyone going to connect themselves in a suitable way, and why would they?

We come back to the basic advice, if you don't know what you are doing with electricity, don't do it !
be a switch, double the fun :-)
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electrostim69
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Re: MODERATOR WARNING: ELECTROSTIMULATION DEVICES

Post by electrostim69 »

I agree with the safety concerns registered in this post. They should be taken seriously.

Human beings being what we are we WILL experiment like this despite warnings so at least use your head before you do anything else and try to learn what the hazards are and how to avoid them.

I personally have used electrostim from commercial TENS to home build audio stim for about 20+ years. I am also an electronics technician and have an advantage of understanding some basics many DIY persons may not understand such as voltage/current and a most important feature called electrical isolation.

It is sad but true many deaths have occurred because someone, including young boys, have wired themselves up to a very dangerous situation and pulled the switch so to speak. I was a police officer many years ago and recall a case of a 14 year old boy found dead by his mother with wires wrapped around his penis connected to his model train transformer. He had no clue about voltages and isolation from house current. The cheap transformer had a common ground and dangerous voltages obviously passed through his body. I always warn that ISOLATION from any power source beyond a battery is one of the most important considerations. If you MUST use a power source other than a battery, it MUST at least be totally isolated from the plug. If you don't know how the power supply you use works...don't use it.

Battery is always the only method of powering any electro-play device I would ever recommend.

I do own a web site selling electrosex devices and am working on a DIY modification kit for your basic but effective starter power box. Due to obvious liability issues I would never build and sell a completed device. My kits would use a USB connector on your computer for power and I always recommend the use of a laptop running on battery which solves the isolation issue. The optimal alternative is to power using one of those cell phone external USB batteries which limits the maximum voltage to five volts.

The more "stages" between your source of power and your fun parts the safer this is.

I don't discourage electro-play, I do discourage stupid behavior and electricity demands the utmost caution lest your next orgasm be your last !!

//
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Re: MODERATOR WARNING: ELECTROSTIMULATION DEVICES

Post by natq »

If you make it powerable via usb, people will use it with anything that has usb, because there is always those fools who think that they are immortal and that the warnings do not apply to them.
Due to the fact that when connected to the charger quite a few laptops have a low, but uncomfortable AC voltage on the chassis, same with some desktops.
And that would be a rather nasty thing to get thru one's dick. I would only offer a battery connector like a 9V snap connector to a battery or lithium cells.
Absolute galvanic isolation fro mains and less chances for the enterprising fools to hurt them selves.
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Re: MODERATOR WARNING: ELECTROSTIMULATION DEVICES

Post by Tenderfoot88 »

Technically, USB should always be a dead-steady 5 volt circuit, but it's an industry-developed specification rather than a formal standard, so there's nobody actually policing that. It's not going to go too high, because they don't want to risk burning out peoples' iPods and smartphones and other such expensive technology, but it's not necessarily going to be perfect, either. (If you insist on using a USB power source, use it with a device that can run a voltage monitoring program, I'd say.)

Firewire isn't an option, either. There's a formal IEEE standard for it, but the standard only really governs the data flow rate, not the voltage. Plus the max voltage is 30V, and nominal is 25 (24-30 being acceptable). Given what 9 volts from a battery feels like on the tongue or elsewhere, I don't think I like the idea of trying 30V.
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Re: MODERATOR WARNING: ELECTROSTIMULATION DEVICES

Post by Theresajayne »

I would like to add another warning to the list if i may.

There is a lot of talk about electrically powered restraints and magnetic restraints,

If you are not qualified and trained please do not try to make these yourself. one bare wire or loose cable and Bang you are fried.

The only really safe device is one that is no where near electricity., Same with ice releases - ensure that any liquid cannot drip onto electrical supplies.
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Re: MODERATOR WARNING: ELECTROSTIMULATION DEVICES

Post by lj »

Most mag locks are operated on low voltage - they are often actually powered from a continually charged 12 or 24 volt battery so that a power outage doesn't stop the lock maintaining security.

The shock risk is minimal (we're back to sticking wires inside the body tissues to cause harm) so "fried" is somewhat inaccurate and emotive.

But the general principle applies, if you don't understand the technology, don't do it.
be a switch, double the fun :-)
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Re: MODERATOR WARNING: ELECTROSTIMULATION DEVICES

Post by sj_larry »

Commercial TENS units and most made for Electrical play units like those made by Erostek, E-stim systems and others are heart issue safe for use below the waist for most people ( I would recommend talking to your doctor if you have any embedded electronics like a pace maker) It is a misconception that the voltage of the battery that powers them is the voltage that they put out, most of these units actually output short pulses of about 100 volts or less that are less than 1/1000 second long (for most units the max pulse length is 1/3 of that) It is that short pulse that makes these units relatively heart safe.
On the other hand most home made stereo-stim type devices, even if battery powered (and the commercial e-stim systems A-box) take the full wave audio input and amplify it to produce the output signal. This is not heart safe and should not be used on the chest area since it is too easy to end up with a signal to which the heart is very sensitive.
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Anthony10
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Re: MODERATOR WARNING: ELECTROSTIMULATION DEVICES

Post by Anthony10 »

Once upon a time I made some electro device for a hands free orgasm. I never found some true measurements about commercial devices. I did some measurements on my specimen with a digital oscilloscope and this were the results.
On the picture you can see one button for regulating the frequency from 7 Hz till 70 Hz. Pulses are generated by switch on and of a small transformer. The generated pulses are 20µs (20.10-6 s) wide, so always very short. There is an other button for regulating the strength of the pulses. Regulated low the strength of the voltage is 1500 V open circuit. Regulated high the voltage peak becomes 3000 V open circuit mearured with a special probe. When there is a resistance of 5000 ohm on the electrodes, could be some body part, the voltage is 25 V when low regulated, and 200 V when high regulated. The less the resistance is, the voltage becomes much lower. I do not know the specifications of a TENS unit.
Are there some people with a TENS unit and a digital oscilloscope?
I always used it below the waist. But it gave no orgasm, and stopped using it.
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lj
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Re: MODERATOR WARNING: ELECTROSTIMULATION DEVICES

Post by lj »

I tested a TENS using a digital scope a while ago. The unit I had, one supplied for pain relief, had a square-wave output, the mark/space ratio, frequency and amplitude were all variable. The maximum voltage output was around 50 volts, I don't recall the other details accurately but the frequency was in the range 10 to 200Hz, pulse width from a few microseconds up to tens of milliseconds. There were some higher voltage spikes lasting a few microseconds caused by the inductive transformers, but these disappeared with even a small resistive load.

The outputs were paired, with two transformer-isolated sets, ie 4 leads, but would only work as pairs, no direct internal connection.

The output voltage was pretty much level with a 10Kohm load, dropping to almost zero at 500ohm.

I doubt you'd trigger an orgasm with a TENS, the signal pattern is too regular, ie it stays exactly the same. I did have the pleasure of experiencing an Erostek that had a programme called, appropriately, "orgasm" which gave an amazingly close copy of the sensations of having penetrative sex (but without the other person :shock: ) but even that didn't give me an orgasm. But what triggers an orgasm will depend on the person, the situation and a whole host of factors.
be a switch, double the fun :-)
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leopard99
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Re: MODERATOR WARNING: ELECTROSTIMULATION DEVICES

Post by leopard99 »

@Anthony10, if you were measuring 3000V with a 'scope I hope you had some special high voltage probes. Ordinary 10:1 probes are only rated at around 500V maximum, as is the input to the scope itself.

These tests were done a long time ago so memory could be faulty. I've also had a look at a TENS output though not with different loads. I saw no more than 100V or so. I also have a GPO hand cranked phone bell ringer. This is a small dynamo. I've used it occasionally at BDSM events where it gives a nice interaction between the operator and the victim. That goes up to about 130V open circuit if you crank it furiously. Can't remember if I used a scope or DVM for that measurement. If it was a scope then it's peak to peak, RMS if I used a DVM. I appreciate there's a factor of almost 3 between RMS and p-p :D
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Re: MODERATOR WARNING: ELECTROSTIMULATION DEVICES

Post by LoKiT »

leopard99 wrote:... If it was a scope then it's peak to peak, RMS if I used a DVM. I appreciate there's a factor of almost 3 between RMS and p-p :D
FYI: For sine waveform output like your hand crank the RMS is typically 0.707 of the peak to peak volts. However, the RMS of a square mark space or pulse chain is more complicated to calculate and beyond the measurement capability of the average DVM design for 50/60hz sine. If you checkout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_mean_square you can see what I mean... its a bit complicated :oops:

Play safe, have fun
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leopard99
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Re: MODERATOR WARNING: ELECTROSTIMULATION DEVICES

Post by leopard99 »

LoKiT wrote:
leopard99 wrote:... If it was a scope then it's peak to peak, RMS if I used a DVM. I appreciate there's a factor of almost 3 between RMS and p-p :D
FYI: For sine waveform output like your hand crank the RMS is typically 0.707 of the peak to peak volts. However, the RMS of a square mark space or pulse chain is more complicated to calculate and beyond the measurement capability of the average DVM design for 50/60hz sine. If you checkout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_mean_square you can see what I mean... its a bit complicated :oops:

Play safe, have fun
Sorry to disagree. For a sine wave RMS is 0.707 (strictly 1/SQRT(2) ) of the PEAK voltage, not PEAK TO PEAK. As stated in the wiki reference you gave. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_mean ... ltages.svg

You are quite correct when you say that RMS can be complicated. For a start the term "RMS Power", commonly used with audio amplifiers, has no sensible meaning. RMS voltage x RMS current = Mean power. However it's in customary use and so would be difficult to change.

I have a decent DMM (Fluke 87) which can make pretty good true RMS readings provided that the crest factor isn't too high. I have also done high frequency true RMS measurement using thermal methods.
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Re: MODERATOR WARNING: ELECTROSTIMULATION DEVICES

Post by CelleCasey »

As eluded to by TieMeTighter, most electrostimulation devices primary purpose is muscle stimulation. These were designed by medical engineers initially for legitimate medical treatment.
Like Mason I am a trained electrician. We know about power supply Not electrical regulation.
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